Modificare alimentare sistem audio

[clau]

Salut.

Ma bate gandul sa vad cum as putea imbunatati sunetul de la masina personala. Nu e vreo prioritate dar pentru viitor chiar as incerca o modificare. Citind pe forumuri schimband difuzoarele nu s-a imbunatatit sunetul fiind o mare lipsa de frecvente joase. Sistemul de camera suna foarte bine. Am un Logitech Z2300. Am mai ascultat si alte sisteme audio dar unele sunt mai bune, altele mai slabe. Un subwoofer dedicat auto mi se pare ca acapareaza prea mult uneori interiorul masinii plus ca imi ocupa loc pretios in masina. Ma intrebam daca nu cumva exista vreo solutie usoara sa pot alimenta sistemul Logitech Z2300 direct de pe bateria de la masina. Ati putea spune ca cel mai usor ar fi sa folosesc un invertor auto si sa produc 220 volti dar mi se pare si scumpa solutia si ineficienta energetic plus spatiul pe care mi-l ia din masina s-ar putea sa nu-mi convina. Ideea ar fi sa elimin partea de alimentare AC si sa alimentez amplificatorul direct DC.

Am vazut pe piata multe solutii pentru ridicare tensiune relativ ieftine : convertoare buck boost. Nu avea cum sa se potriveasca la fix tensiunea de 13-14 volti a masinii cu ce a gandit un producator de sistem audio pentru camera. Am aflat ca pentru a functiona sistemul ar necesita aproximativ 26-27 volti DC cu un curent maxim de 3-4 amperi. Problema intampinata este ca sistemul acesta e gandit sa fie alimentat cu un transformator toroidal cu priza mediana : +20V AC , 0 , -20V AC. Cum pot alimenta corect acest sistem audio ? Imi trebuie tensiune negativa cu ceva amperaj din cate observ. Trebuie sa pot alimenta intregul sistem de la o singura sursa ( bateria masinii ). Exista vreo solutie ieftina pentru conversie tensiune ?

Voi completa cateva date despre sistemul Logitech Z2300, informatii gasite pe internet :
Toroidal Transformer Details

Manufacturer: Ten Pao International Ltd.
Part No: Z-2200 EU
Model No: TOG433028F0
VA Rating: 150.9 VA [Confirmed by Ten Pao]
Primary Input: AC 230V/50Hz
Secondary Output Voltage: AC 20.1V x 2
Secondary Output Current: 3.75 A
Diameter: 95 mm
Height: 45 mm

Z-2300 amplifier uses
i) Two STMicroelectronics Class-AB, 80W, TDA7295 amplifiers bridged together to provide a total of 2 X 80=160W for the subwoofer.
ii) Two STMicroelectronics Class-AB, 60W, TDA7296 amplifiers powering each of the satellites.

Informatiile le-am luat de aici :
https://www.electronicspoint.com/forums/threads/help-required-on-logitech-z-2300-toroidal-transformer.229646/
https://forums.tomsguide.com/threads/logitech-z-2300-the-last-of-the-titans.234775/

[zildan]

In primul rand tu trebuie sa cauti un amplificator in clasa D de ex TPA3116 D2 Dual Channel 50Wx2 (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32847729011.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4dKHwGnX) , apoi, vezi ca sunt pe aliexpress Boost Converter DC-DC.

[clau]

Mersi pentru sugestie dar am evitat varianta asta. Am pus in masina la un moment dat un subwoofer rotund ( de masina ) cu un amplificator separat si pur si simplu nu mi-a placut sunetul. Bubuia prea tare si acoperea toata muzica. Am mai reglat apoi si tot nu mi-a lasat impresie buna. Problema e ca nu stiu ce obtin daca iau un amplificator ca ala pentru ca nu stiu cat are importanta amplificatorul si cat are constructia subwoferului. E posibil ca in cazul Logitech Z2300 incinta sa faca sunetul placut.

Avantajul la Z2300 era ca avea totul integrat, inclusiv amplificarea. Ramanea sunetul pe care-l stiam, ramaneau controalele de volum si preamplificatorul in apropiere . Ba chiar puteam sa-l opresc daca puneam consola aproape de pozitia soferului, totul fara cine stie ce modificari. Cu o priza de monitorizare consum am testat intr-o camera si observ ca in gol consuma vreo 15-20w iar mie imi place sunetul cand consuma 30-35w. N-as zice ca e foarte puternic deci un subwoofer de 20-30w mi-ar fi suficient daca as gasi locul potrivit.

[clau]

Am gasit pe ebay o postare cu un amplificator tpa3116 in functie de tensiunea de alimentare si de impedanta difuzorului utilizat. Amplificatorul e vandut ca avand 100w.

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- - - Updated - - -


https://i.postimg.cc/yY09C7qP/screenshot-22677.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

---------- Post added at 16:33 ---------- Previous post was at 16:31 ----------

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N5DGK37/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B01N5DGK37&linkCode=as2&tag=cafe80s04-20&linkId=39ec7aac4229835eda1adf1d7f6dead7

[zildan]

Daca nu stii sa faci filtre etc, e mai greu sa "le legi".
Vezi ca sunt si amplifiatoare mono, eu am cumparat pt un contract care nu a mai iesit :( un lot de amplificatoare mono care dau 20W la 12v.

[mario08]

Eu cred ca ai plecat pe o idee greșită, în sensul ca dinamica/plăcerea bass-ului este data de boxa în sine și nu de tensiunea de alimentare
Cauta pe net și vezi formule de a construi un subwoofer în funcție de diametrul/puterea difuzorului de joase
În plus cu cât diametrul difuzorului de joase e mai mare cu atât ai o dinamica mai buna
Îți scriu din proprie experienta , fiindcă mi-am făcut cutiile de lemn de la un kit de difuzoare "Meloman" prin anii '80 și am avut un prieten care mi-a calculat dimensiunile cutiilor de lemn/pfl de 18 și acum le am , dar din păcate zac prin boxa de la subsol
Difuzorul de joase are 30cm în diametru și cu un amplificator de la mini-turn ( 2x 20w ) făcut la fosta electronica din pipera , rupea......intr-o camera de 20m pătrați, nici nu puteam da la maxim volumul
Boxele de abia le ridic , fiind de compresie ( nu bass-reflex ) , erau așezate în stanga/dreapta ferestrei și eu stand în pat în cealaltă extrema a camerei , simțeam cum se misca patul din cauza dinamicii de la joase
Cea ce intr-un autoturism e greu de realizat , în plus ai grija ca s-ar putea ca frecventa de rezonanta a difuzorului de joase, în timp sa iti deterioreze piesele nituite
Am auzit la mulți cum zdrangane caroseria când dau volumul mai tare și pun accent pe bass

[clau]

Nu am plecat de la tensiunea de alimentare decat in ideea de limitare putere. Voiam sa subliniez ca un amplificator vandut ca "100w" in functie de tensiunea de alimentare si de impedanta difuzorului poate avea doar 10w debitati pe el, adica de 10 ori mai putin. Playerul auto cred ca e 4x15w sau 4x25w . In niciun caz nu e din cel de 4x45w. Cu toate astea n-am probleme cu intensitatea sunetului si mi se pare suficient de puternic deci imi ajung cei 15-20w. Am probleme cu lipsa basului. Nu imi doresc nici foarte mult dar acolo...cat de cat. Tocmai de aceea subliniam mai sus ca nu-mi doresc un subwoofer dedicat pentru ca nu vreau sa duduie masina si ma astept ca o putere de 20-40w rms pe subwoofer sa fie mai mult decat ok pentru mine. Pentru o camera de 4x4m mi s-a parut ideal un Microlab M820 care are in total 40w. O masina nu cred sa necesite mai mult de atat.

Altii au incercat cu inlocuirea difuzoarelor originale ale masinii cu altele mai cu nume de pe piata dar nu a dat rezultate. Difuzoarele originale ale masinii sunt inguste si au doar 13cm diametru. Nu e loc de mai mult. Au impedanta 2ohmi. Cam orice cumperi de pe piata vei lua de 4ohmi si automat reduci puterea. Calitatea sunetului nu creste pentru ca problema initiala e chiar playerul masinii. Asta e adevarata problema. Daca de la sursa vine un sunet cu putin bass cu greu poti corecta. Playerul masinii are "bass boost" dar modifica tot sunetul masinii si dispar sunetele medii si inalte cand plusez prea mult pe bass boost. Iar nu-mi place. Nu vreau sa umblu la playerul masinii in ideea de a-l inlocui. As dori sa alterez doar sunetul plecat din player. Cel mai la indemana imi e sa iau sunet de la boxa din usa spate, sa folosesc un filtru high-low si sa-l trimit catre un subwoofer cu nivel reglabil de bass. Ar trebui sa fie suficient. Problema de aici intervine prin faptul ca nu pot estima ce sunet poate genera combinatia dintre diverse amplificatoare + incinte. Sa nu ma trezesc ca vibreaza totul prin masina chiar si la bass mic. Nu e prea bine insonorizata masina.

De proba am urcat subwooferul logitech z2300 in portbagaj si l-am alimentat la 220v prin geamul din spate in garaj la o priza. Sunetul e imbunatatit chiar daca tin nivelul de bass aproape de minim. De la peste 30% volum nu se poate folosi pentru ca tremura tabla pe masina probabil din cauza izolatiei slabute. Pentru mine acesta e cazul ideal. Pe un alt model de masina am vazut un subwoofer de genius si nu mi-a placut deloc pentru ca desi aducea mai mult bass mai depinde si cum suna : bum bum bum ( genius ) fata de buuum , buuum buuum (logitech z2300). As vrea sa impusc 2 iepuri dintr-un foc : bass dar si sunet care imi place. Daca as vrea doar bass se poate rezolva cu orice subwoofer + amplificator dar nu stiu ce obtin. E exact cum am cumparat tweetere pentru masina si le-am montat. Masina are loc din fabrica + cablaj pentru tweetere dar pe nivelul meu de echipare nu erau prezente. Am cumparat niste tweetere dar nu pot egala ce sunet scoate cu cele de fabrica si am ramas dezamagit. Pot zice pentru comparatie ca intre Logitech z2300 , z5500, z680, x530, z630 prefer in ordine : z2300, z680. Vorbesc de putere mica unde nici macar x530 nu era dat nici la jumatate din volum. N-a influentat puterea decat sunetul care imi place mie. E subiectiv.

Dupa cum ziceam e posibil sa nu trec prea curand la fapte dar ma astept ca in primavara sa incerc ceva. Am vazut problema la sursa de alimentare la logitech si am sperat sa primesc un sfat de la electronisti in ideea daca se poate modifica cam cu ce costuri si ce presupune modificarea acelei surse. Nu este singura sursa construita astfel. Mai multe surse din sistemele audio de casa au alimentare cu transformator cu priza mediana deci se aplica in mai multe cazuri nu doar cazul acesta particular. Ar fi interesant de stiut ce presupune o reconversie. Subiectul nu e dezbatut nicaieri pe internet. Daca aveti un link cu o astfel de modificare rog sa o postati.

[clau]

Deoarece am mai avut timp am mai cautat pe internet cum arata pe interior amplificatorul din Logitech Z2300. N-am gasit mare lucru dar mi-a atras atentia o punte redresoare. Pare ca din transformatorul toroidal vin 3 fire (rosu,galben,negru) spre puntea redresoare iar din ea ies 2 fire ( rosu, verde ) cu firul negru aparent nelegat la punte ci legat pe direct sa duca spre partea de amplificare.

Sursa imaginilor aici la minutul 1:57 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xkGxD9Tgdc

https://i.postimg.cc/TwV1nytq/screenshot-22680.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



https://i.postimg.cc/XqxvDRSr/screenshot-22681.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[mario08]

Asa se intampla la alimentatoarele simetrice cu +/-
Din traf , ies 3 fire ca in cazul tau
- 2 fire se duc in punte , rexultand tensiunea continua
- al 3 -lea fir din trafe asa zisa ''masa flotanta''
Fata de aceasta ''masa flotanta'' apar 2 tensiuni identice :
- una cu minus fata de masa flotanta + minusul de la punte
- una cu plus fata de masa flotanta + plusul de la punte - vezi foto
https://i.postimg.cc/4yC6D8vd/Fet100-alimentare.png (https://postimages.org/)

[clau]

Mersi pentru schema. Problema se pune cum pot inlocui acest tip de sursa cu alimentare de la o sursa de 12Volti ( acumulator auto ) folosind eventual vreun convertor. Un exemplu ar fi perfect.

[mario08]

Iti creezi o "masa flotanta" prin inserierea a 2 condensator de filtraj
La terminalul de plus a condesatorului , vei avea plusul sursei
La terminalul de minus a condesatorului , vei avea minusul sursei și la conexiunea celor 2 condesatori creezi "masa flotanta"
Problema apare ca din tensiunea de 12V a bateriei vei avea +/-6V , deci neapărat iti trebuie un ridicat-o de tensiune la ce tensiune duala vrei
Sau folosești un convertor 12Vcc/230V ac și apoi folosești un alimentator conform schemei anterioare